关于语言,感觉和外物之间的关系答apate



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送交者: 鲁晨光 于 2005-1-20, 15:47:31:

图解:即使两个小孩天生地响应红色绿色有相反两种色觉,两个小孩会接受同样的颜色定义:“花是红的”,“叶是绿的”。(图中彩色不代表颜色,而是代表假设的色觉,为的是表达意思方便)

最近一发言就说重贴。不知为什么(是不是警告我不要乱说?我没有啊, 我很赞成学术打假, 赞成进化论,赞成科学啊!),所以今天才回。

Apate:

很高兴你写了那么多文字,认真和我谈论哲学问题。我认真看了。我英语不好,不过还是试试用英语回答你, 也乘机学习英语。

First of all, you misundersatood my hypothesis in your talking:
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for example. how do you *know* the abnormal kid X have B and A (instead of A and B) as names to the two colors? you are contradicting yourself by insisting on the one hand that the other's experience is not knowable and on the other hand proposing to *know* the other (the kid X) has B and A as names for the two colors。
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In my experiment, A and B are not names of colors as you thoght, and both kid x and a normal person kid y name colors with "red" and "green" in the same way. I proved that if kids x innatively has abnormal color perceptions A and B corresponding to red and green colors ,from which kid y perceive B and A, then kid x will accept the same definition: "boold is red"and "grass is green" because their grandmothers taught them color names only by pointing blood, flowers, flags, grass... instead of pointing whose senstions (see the following picture) . So, this kind of abnormal color perceptions cannot be found by anyone (Actually, Lock foud this earlier). And red and green are not names of color perceptions A and B or B and A. From Lock (the same philosopher), almost all western philosophers thought that "red" and "green" were names of color perceptions. They were wrong.

You said
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part of your problem is to equate *to know* with *to describe*. first, it seems that what you have in mind about knowing is only propositional. W actually offers a few starting points to altenratives. the first is what he calls "exhibiting" of verbal expressions which in turn may be related to the primitive, the natural, expressions [like groaning in pain] of the sensation and [these verval expressions are] used in their [primitive expressions] place" (PI, §244).
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In my mind, we neither know or describe other person's sensations. We can only describe "red sensation" with the help of red color. Actually, in common language, "red sensation" means any a visual sensation correspoding blood, or red light.

From my viewpoint, pain and beauty sense ... are feelings different from sensations of color, sound... These feelings are pleasant or unpleasant.
They are defined by our behavior. If we want to do it again, the feeling should pleasant feeling. If we dislike or fear to do it again, the feeling should be unpleasant feeling. Beauty sense actually is visually or acoustically pleasant feeling related to our approching action (see http://survivor99.com/lcg/books/beauty for details. Pain is similarly definded. It is related to our fear action, such as fearring fire and knifs. This viewpoint is similar to W's viewpoint.


You said
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part of Aristotle's view, then, is that the one who does make good sense of the speech community's language needs to be spanked and kicked out. the poor X kid is probably such a person. but, once again, you even don't know if such a person exists or not. so you can never kick out or spank someone who is really nothing at all. only in imagination, but if imagination is only possible using your own language and projecting your own image, then you are just spanking and kicking yourself.
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The kid X can use language the same way as we use even though he has the inverted color perceptions. So, he couldn't be kicked out. I neither.

怎么样? 不能踢我屁股吧?

Welcome you talk further with me on bbs or through email. My email:survival99@21cn.com
My website Http://survivor99.com/lcg





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